Allen Ginsberg on William Blake’s Vala or The Four Zoas continues from here
AG: So there’s a parallel or there’s a correlation between Blake’s Zoas and the four living creatures. Now, do the living creatures have any further schematic senses?
Student: Well, they relate to…. I’m sorry..
Student (2): Did you say an ox ? (The ox is an important symbol in Chinese astrology)
Student (3): The eagle (Aquila) is (important in Graeco-Roman astronomy), a constellation (which is) at zero degrees at the first day of spring which you can draw a line….
AG: The eagle?
Student (3): The eagle, yes…you can draw a line from the North Star to the….
AG: Well, wait, wait. We’re still in the Book of Revelations and if we jump too far we’ll get into soup. No, in the Book of Revelations, in the Biblical thing, to begin with, are there any other senses or space or portions? Do you know?
Student: At the beginning of the Book of Revelations, when John is explaining his vision, he says that the … he relates the Four Zoas to the Four Evangelists …
AG: Yeah.
Student: … Matthew, Mark….
AG: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Student: Yeah. And they are the bringers of the Word – the Gospel, the Truth.
AG: Yeah
Student (3): (The teachings)
AG: Okay, now, do Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John have any relation to direction in space, or any of these (qualities)?
Student (3): Through the Zodiac, images that are connected with it through these (figures)
AG: Okay, so, Mark (sic), the one you were talking about, is the eagle, and what is the function of the eagle?
Student (3): No, I was going to say that the eagle is “a constellation that is directly over the U.S.”!
AG: Well, no, but can you (explain it) a little less frivolously? Does the Eagle have any direction, basically?
Student: In the Paradiso (according to) Dante, he’s…
Student (2) : Yeah, he’s heading west.
AG: West.
Student: Jupiter is the eagle’s (sphere)…
AG: (to Student) Well, let’s see now. One thing (at a time) No, please. We’re still trying to figure this out, then we’ll get to whatever information you have.
The eagle is heading west? I’m trying to figure out whether, if anybody knows, the Biblical and post-Biblical creatures have any directional symbolism, because it’s likely they do at some point or other, as they develop through Western Kabbalah or Gnosticism or Hermetic studies or magic. If the eagle is West, Urthona is traditionally north, according to Blake. I’m just trying to check them out relating to Blake.
Student: He doesn’t really … Blake doesn’t really like to correlate so systematically.
AG: Well, I just want to see to the extent that it either does or doesn’t. What was your (idea)?
Student: I was (just listening to what) this gentleman was saying, who was saying that something about the eagle ..
AG: Yeah.
Student: … and (about) Dante’s Paradiso …
AG: Dante uses them, all four, too, doesn’t he?
Student: … yeah, he has each (sphere as Dante and Beatrice climb (up into Paradise), and then (ascend to) Jupiter – (to Justice) – and that represents (the) eagle and (that sphere) turns into the whole body of the eagle and has the … I’m trying to remember…I know.. what the Mars one (represents) – and then Jupiter – (maybe) Justice, too?
to be continued