Ginsberg on Blake continues – 58

Allen Ginsberg 1979 Naropa class on William Blake’s The Four Zoas continues from here

Student: (I’m not sure what you mean here?)
AG:  Yeah.
Student :  I mean, when I read that part, it’s…
Student (2): Are you talking about  “All this is mine yet I must serve & that Prophetic boy/Must grow up to command his Prince…” ?
AG:  Huh? –  That’s the same….

Student:  I’m a little confused by the “Prophetic boy” – is that supposed to be Los or …
AG: Orc.
AG:  Orc.  I think that’s Orc.
Student:  Yeah.
AG:  Orc born of Tharmas.

Student:  “Dark Ocean” – Tharmas, right?

AG:  Yeah, born of the “dark Ocean.”  Born of the body in chaos. When the body falls into chaos, completely. As Urizen falls and the body emerges but in a chaotic form, Orc will be born out of that ocean.

Student:  That is switching them around from the earlier book where Orc was the son of Los and Enitharmon.

AG:  Yeah.   However, Luvah and Vala are now going to become … well, Vala’ll be a worm.  Remember we had that worm to serpent to dragon before.  We had Luvah’s speech a while back, I think it was on page three-one-one, about the natural universe first becoming a worm, then growing into a serpent, then to a giant dragon, and then into an infant — a human infant, probably – some human form.  So,

“Vala shall become a Worm in Enitharmons Womb/Laying her seed upon the fibres soon to issue forth” – (And emotion, born out of the poet’s prick) – “And Luvah in the loins of Los a dark & furious death” – (Luvah is also connected with Orc, I think, also.  Variously Luvah is sometimes the father of Orc.  Emotion is sometimes the father of Orc.  Well, I don’t know).

Student:  Well, what comes out in form of Luvah
AG:  Pardon me?
Student:  What comes out….
AG:  Yeah.  Yes, yes, yes, yes.  Orc would be …
Student:  Orc.  He’s a lower.  He’s a lower….
AG:  Yeah, he would be a lower form of Luvah, right.  Right.

Gee, I’m glad you’re on it.  Because it wavers in and out of my brain what it all means.  I follow it minute-to-minute and then sometimes I lose grasp.  And I keep wondering if I’m the only one who’s really trying to piece it together and keep my mind in one spot.  It’s actually an interesting exercise.  Have you ever done that with the poem before?  In Buddhist theories sometimes you do that, trying to figure out Buddhist theories. And I imagine in Tarot and in hermetic exercises and Kabbalistic studies, that’s the method of just trying to keep all the symbols straight and connect them finally and finally see it (as) one big crystal.

Audio for the above can be heard here, beginning at approximately thirty-eight-and-three-quarter minutes in and concluding at approximately forty-two-and-a-quarter minutes in

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